Gregory S. Berns: An interview by Bob Morris

Gregory S. Berns

Gregory Berns occupies the Distinguished Chair of Neuroeconomics, serves as Director of the Center for Neuropolicy, and is a professor in both psychiatry and economics at Emory University. He earned an A.B. degree at Princeton University (his major was physics), an M.D. degree at the University of California, San Diego, and a Ph.D. degree at the University of California, Davis. His research uses brain scanning technologies to decode the relationship of neural activity to decision-making. The approach is called Neuroeconomics. He and his research associates are particularly interested in how the brain integrates personal valuation decisions with the effects of social messages. His work is funded by the National Institutes of Health, the National Science Foundation, and the Department of Defense. Berns is the author of Iconoclast: A Neuroscientist Reveals How to Think Differently published in 2008 by Harvard Business Press and a recipient of several prestigious awards. For example, it was named by Fast Company magazine as one of the 10 best business books of 2008.

Morris: A number of articles and several books in recent years have focused their attention on fMRI. For those who have no idea what it is and what it can reveal, please explain.

Berns: fMRI stands for functional magnetic resonance imaging.  It uses an MRI scanner to measure blood flow in the brain while a person is thinking about or doing something in the scanner.  The technology has been in widespread research use for 15 years and has helped uncover how specific parts of the brain function during different types of cognitive tasks. In recent years, it has been increasingly applied to more complex tasks.  For the most part, anything that can be presented on a computer screen, we can study human brain responses with fMRI.  Understanding what these measurements actually mean, however, is a fair bit more complicated.

Morris: In Buyology: Truth and Lies About Why We Buy, Martin Lindstrom shares what he learned about “what’s going on in our brains that makes us chose one brand over another – what information passes through our brain’s filter and what information doesn’t — well that would be key to truly building brands of the future.” His book offers what strike me as preliminary conclusions about neuromarketing. In fact, how much do we know for certain about how we make various types of decisions, such as which product to purchase, which political candidate to vote for, or what to plant in a garden?

Berns: Neuromarketing is more recent application of fMRI.  I think we have to be very careful in interpreting claims like this.  For example, fMRI measurements are noisy.  You have to make many measurements to be sure what you have is a real signal and not just a random fluctuation.  There is a huge amount of variability between people.  This means you need to study an adequate number of people, typically 30-50, to get a good idea of what constitutes a typical responses.  Even then, we must be careful in interpreting what brain activations mean.  The brain is a very efficient multitasker, which means that it will use a given part of the brain for many different functions.  This means you can’t always point to activity in a particular brain region, and know what a person is thinking.  I think this aspect of neuromarketing has been way overhyped, and any neuromarketer that claims to predict what people will do is overselling the technology at this point.  I say, prove it.

Morris: To what extent is the human brain “hardwired”? To what extent can it be “rewired”?

Berns: Everything is hardwired to the extent that the act of thinking depends on physical molecules moving around the brain.  Unlike a computer, the distinction between hardware and software is not so clear.  We do know that once the brain reaches maturity, it is much slower to change.  It *can* change under the right circumstances.  Novelty will force the brain to adapt because it can’t rely on past experience.  And most interesting, exercise, because it releases brain growth factors, is probably the best lubricant for rewiring.

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If you wish to read the complete interview, please click here.

Berns invites you to check out the resources at these Web sites:

Main lab research site
www.ccnl.emory.edu

Neuropolicy Center
www.neuropolicy.emory.edu

Occasional Blog
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plus2sd