Interview: Gregory S. Berns

Gregory S. Berns

Berns occupies the Distinguished Chair of Neuroeconomics, serves as Director of the Center for Neuropolicy, and is a professor in both psychiatry and economics at Emory University. He earned an A.B. degree at Princeton University (his major was physics), an M.D. degree at the University of California, San Diego, and a Ph.D. degree at the University of California, Davis. His research uses brain scanning technologies to decode the relationship of neural activity to decision-making. The approach is called Neuroeconomics. He and his research associates are particularly interested in how the brain integrates personal valuation decisions with the effects of social messages. His work is funded by the National Institutes of Health, the National Science Foundation, and the Department of Defense. Berns is the author of Iconoclast: A Neuroscientist Reveals How to Think Differently published in 2008 by Harvard Business Press and a recipient of several prestigious awards. For example, it was named by Fast Company magazine as one of the 10 best business books of 2008.

Here is a brief excerpt from my interview of Berns. The complete interview is also available.

Morris: In Buyology: Truth and Lies About Why We Buy, Martin Lindstrom shares what he learned about “what’s going on in our brains that makes us chose one brand over another – what information passesthrough our brain’s filter and what information doesn’t — well that would be key to truly building brands of the future.” His book offers what strike me as preliminary conclusions about neuromarketing. In fact, how much do we know for certain about how we make various types of decisions, such as which product to purchase, which political candidate to vote for, or what to plant in a garden?
Berns: Neuromarketing is a more recent application of fMRI. I think we have to be very careful in interpreting claims like this. For example, fMRI measurements are noisy. You have to make many measurements to be sure what you have is a real signal and not just a random fluctuation. There is a huge amount of variability between people. This means you need to study an adequate number of people, typically 30-50, to get a good idea of what constitutes a typical response. Even then, we must be careful in interpreting what brain activations mean. The brain is a very efficient multitasker, which means that it will use a given part of the brain for many different functions. This means you can’t always point to activity in a particular brain region, and know what a person is thinking. I think this aspect of neuromarketing has been way overhyped, and any neuromarketer that claims to predict what people will do is overselling the technology at this point. I say, prove it.

Morris: To what extent is the human brain “hardwired”? To what extent can it be “rewired”?

Berns: Everything is hardwired to the extent that the act of thinking depends on physical molecules moving around the brain. Unlike a computer, the distinction between hardware and software is not so clear. We do know that once the brain reaches maturity, it is much slower to change. It *can* change under the right circumstances. Novelty will force the brain to adapt because it can’t rely on past experience. And most interesting, exercise, because it releases brain growth factors, is probably the best lubricant for rewiring.

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If you wish to read the complete interview, please contact me at interllect@mindspring.com.

Berns invites you to check out the resources at these Web sites:

Main lab research site
www.ccnl.emory.edu

Neuropolicy Center
www.neuropolicy.emory.edu

Occasional Blog
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plus2sd

What was she thinking?

Will she still like this public portrayal in 20 years?

Sara observes: I was walking around a local college campus during their recent elections.  A young woman had signs from one end of campus to the other proclaiming her run for “Head of the Programming Council.”  By the way, this is not a picture of Phyl, Muffy, Fluff-for-Brains or whatever her name is.  However, it is eerily similar.   I have to be honest, when I saw the signs I began to chuckle…several rude comments about the type of programming she might recommend just leapt into my head before I could shoo them away.   Here are some questions that remain for me:  what is she selling?  No, seriously, when you put your picture on a sign and post it in public, you are selling something! What is the cost of using that type of picture?  Once posted, it will never go away completely…so that question will follow her into the future.  What message did she mean to convey?  This young woman and the logic she and her political campaign committee used elude me.

I am left with a painful example of why women have difficulty changing their image.   Gail Evans, points out in “Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman”  that  the problem is, when women act in a manner that confirms stereotypes,  all women get categorized.  This journey of equality needs to begin earlier than I had been thinking.  It’s important that we teach our daughters the value of self respect, the importance of being aware of their impact and how long the future might be (case in point, hiring companies checking candidates out on MySpace and Facebook.)

Those who know me, know I am not one to publicly poke fun at someone as I am doing now.  Please know that I wish the best for Muffy.   To be fair to her, I’ve carefully left out the name of the university, concealed her real name and even used a fake picture…so, if this sounds like someone you know and you are offended, talk to them, not me.

Five Brainteasers

Perhaps you are familiar with many (if not most) of these brainteasers but they are fun to share with family members and friends. Scroll down to the answers below.

1. Some months have 30 days. Others have 31. How many have 28?

2. Divide 30 by one-half and add ten. What’s the total?

3. You are driving a bus. At the first stop, five get on, one gets off; at the next stop, seven get on and two get off; at the next stop, two get on and six get off; at the last stop, three get on and three get off. What is the name of the bus driver?

4. A plane crashes exactly on the Texas-Oklahoma border. Where do you bury the survivors?

5. You are in a house with four walls. Each wall has one window. Each window has a southern exposure. Where are you?

1. All of them.

2. 70

3. You are driving a bus.

4. Bury the survivors?

5. The North Pole.

I love books!

Cheryl offers: I recently heard the rumor that eventually all books will be digital. Down with that idea I say! Call me old fashioned, but I am one of those people who LOVE to hold a book, turn the pages, feel the paper, write notes in the white space, highlight what catches my attention and I want to remember.  When I think about great civilizations, not one comes to mind that didn’t have story telling as a part of their culture. In our day, we tell our stories in books. I love the touch and feel of a good book in my hands and my eyes love the print. Reading a screen, be it a Kindle or a personal computer, is not my idea of a good time. It’s hard for me to feel connected to something that disappears at the drop of an electric current or battery. I don’t want it to “come alive” when I want to read and I don’t want to wait for it to “shut down” for the night when I’m sleepy and want to go to bed. I hope this idea of putting all print on electronic media goes away and stays away. Whatever will I do with all my bookshelves? How will I ever find all the ideas I loved at the moment I read them? This all became very clear to me as I read The Last Lecture by Randy Pausch.  Although I know his words would have been the same, something changed as I held the book in my own hands knowing he wrote this with only a few months to live just last year and now he is already gone.

Sara adds:  Just for the record, I love paper and ink books, too.  Hey, with as much grey hair as I have – it’s to be expected (!)  I think it’s a generational thing.  However, I also love the idea of drawing new reading audiences into the world of “other people’s ideas,” into the place of relying on the mind’s eye to create a locale or a tone or spectacular view.  We hear so much about the need for innovation in business.  Well, I’m here to tell you that without an active imagination, innovation is tough.  Reading is way to stimulate the imagination and to practice those muscles that make innovation possible.  So let’s make room for technology that encourages  reading.   Let’s be OK with the fact that it’s designed for a younger generation and their styles.  So here’s to Kindles and nooks, Cybook Opus, BeBook and all the others.  Let’s encourage younger folk to expand their “electronic horizons” by introducing new ideas in their medium.  And then let’s invite them to a join us in a conversation.

Vote for Androgynous Leadership

Cheryl offers: There’s a lot of debate in the media right now over whether or not more women in the upper ranks of the financial leadership ranks would have prevented the current economic situation.  In most of them, women and men seem to get “labeled” with all kinds of characteristics, usually stated as if they were fact based on profound research; usually they are not.  Samuel Taylor Coleridge once said. “The truth is, a great mind must be androgynous” and I tend to agree with him. This infers a great mind would have both female and male characteristics (the best of both worlds so to speak).  In Daniel H. Pink’s book, “A Whole New Mind – Why Right Brainers Will Rule the Future” he proposes the idea we are moving from the Information Age, dominated by an economy and society built on logical, linear, and computer-like capabilities (think left brain hemisphere and robotic traders on Wall Street) to one called the Conceptual Age characterized by inventive, empathetic, big picture thinking found primarily in the right hemisphere of the brain.  Hmmm…makes me wonder if he’s not right! How different would our world be if the financial world had not been driven so much by numbers and had instead considered the long-term big picture with an empathetic view on the potential impact on those being affected. This is neither a male nor female view of the world. It’s androgynous and requires the whole brain to be engaged. Research has repeatedly proven more women in upper ranks of leadership will produce better financial and qualitative results. I vote for androgynous leadership rather than new financial laws!

Sara adds:   I hadn’t thought about leadership that way, but I like it.  Imagine a world where leaders are assessed by the competencies rather than gender or ethnicity!  It echoes Jim Collins’ idea of leadership in Good to Great.   “Level 5 leaders channel their ego needs away from themselves and into the larger goal of building a great company.  It’s not that Level 5 leaders have no ego or self-interest.  Indeed, they are incredibly ambitious – but their ambition is first and foremost for the institution, not themselves. “  It is the best of both genders – just think consider the possibilites!